4-acetoxy-DET Primer
By ToadOriginally published in Entheogen Review
Vol 10(No 3) Autumn 2001
INDEX
It could be said that the 4th-position tryptamines represent some of the best psychedelics in the tryptamine family. Among the classics, psilocin and psilocybin rank right up near the top. Many possible substitution patterns exist in this family, some of which have been synthesized and extensively tested. One such 4th-position tryptamine that deserves consideration and investigation is the N,N-diethyl cousin of psilocin/psilocybin called 4-hydroxy-DET (see entry #16 in TIHKAL) or more commonly referred to as CZ-74 in the scientific literature. CZ-74 and its phosphoryloxy sister compound CEY-19 have an interesting history. They were first synthesized in the Sandoz lab by Albert Hofmann and F. Troxler in the late 1950s (Hofmann 1958; Troxler et al. 1959). A few years later these compounds were provided to several German research scientists for evaluation and testing under the direction of Hofmann and A. Cerletti (Leuner & Baer 1965).
Several possible esters can be attached to the 4th position of the indole ring, which all share a similar pharmacologic profile. Those compounds that have been extensively tested are the 4-hydroxy, 4-phosphoryloxy, and 4-acetoxy esters. Once inside the human body, the 4-phosphoryloxy ester of DMT (psilocybin) has been shown to rapidly metabolize into 4-hydroxy-DMT (psilocin) by phosphatase enzymes (Hasler et al. 1997). It is theorized that the 4-acetoxy ester behaves in a similar way and gets metabolized into the active 4-hydroxy compound via esterase enzymes (Shulgin 1999).
In our last report, titled "4-acetoxy-DIPT Primer," we mentioned that initial trials indicated the effects of the 4-acetoxy and 4-hydroxy esters were essentially the same. After further experimentation with 4-hydroxy and 4-acetoxy esters we have come to a different conclusion. While our experimental data points are still somewhat limited, it seems that there are definite subjective differences between the esters. Most notable was the extended duration, slight increase in potency, and smoother effects with the 4-acetoxy compound. Test subjects reported the same alteration scheme and general psychedelic effects with 4-hydroxy and 4-acetoxy esters, however all said they preferred the 4-acetoxy, even though some of them couldn't exactly put their finger on why. From the standpoint of chemical stability the 4-acetoxy ester is better since it doesn't rapidly degrade in the presence of oxygen like the 4-hydroxy form does. It's quite possible the acetoxy compound may be transported into the brain prior to being deacetylated by the blood esterases, and thus would be considered an entirely separate and individual drug. These pharmacological questions form yet another fascinating chapter to the 4th-position story.
In the mid 1960s, Dr. Hanscarl Leuner and G. Baer published a series of studies involving extensive clinical trials of CZ-74 with human volunteers (Leuner & Baer 1965; Baer 1967; Leuner 1962). They found CZ-74 to produce a psychedelic effect that differed only slightly from LSD and psilocybin. The overall effects were virtually identical in terms of the qualitative experience reported by their test subjects, with the only major differences being the dosage levels and duration. The physiological effects were found to be slight and within normal limits, even with high doses (Leuner & Baer 1965).
Leuner and Baer provided multiple sessions for their test subjects and noticed the pattern of inebriation changed over the course of repeated administrations. The most marked changes in the reports were the reduction of side-effects involving concentration and the thinking process (Baer 1967; Leuner 1962). Clearly, as one gets more comfortable and adept with navigating a new psychedelic space the negative effects tend to be perceived as being less dramatic.
In looking at the results of Leuner and Baer some observations can be made regarding the nature of CZ-74 and 4-acetoxy-DET. The physical effects were well established. There were slight increases in pulse rate, body temperature, and blood pressure, nausea, hypersalivation, reduced reaction of the pupils indicating mydriasis, somewhat increased reflexes, and coordination disturbances observed. The classic paranormal psychic effects of psilocin, LSD, and mescaline were also clearly present. The most frequent effects reported were a distortion of body image (100%), and optical hallucinations (90%), with optical sensations forming the biggest group of psychedelic effects reported in the study. The second largest grouping of reported effects were inhibition of speech articulation, nausea, euphoria, dysphoria, restlessness, and clouded consciousness, followed by acoustic hallucinations, paranoid thoughts, cosmic-mystical experience, age regression, and time distortion. Rarely, and only with the highest doses, did they notice extreme psychotic symptoms, with depersonalization, delirium, schizophrenic behavior with catatonic fits, and temporary paranoia happening (Baer 1967).
DOSING STRATEGIES
Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with 4-acetoxy-DET and provide it to a few friends. This compound shares in some of the positive qualities and attributes of psilocin/psilocybin yet has a shorter duration of 36 hours when taken orally. Similar to our results with other obscure tryptamine and phenethylamine research compounds, I have noticed a fairly wide variance in personal preference of dosage for 4-acetoxy-DET. Dosage levels varied from 1033 mg orally with 1822 mg being the average. I would liken the dosage response curve and effects to psilocin/psilocybin in that things get much more serious beyond a certain point. The line seems to hover around 25 mg with a sharp rise in the potential for ego dissolution beyond that. More sensitive individuals may find the line to be much lower. My advice is to tread carefully when experimenting with this powerful tryptamine and work it up slowly in progressive trials starting with 1020 mg. In my experiments I have preferred higher dosages of this compound, feeling more fluent and free to explore the space as the veil gets completely lifted. However, I have witnessed several difficult trips with this material and I'm by no means suggesting that high doses (above 25 mg) will be appropriate for the majority of readers. If you choose to experiment with high doses I would recommend that you do your low- and medium-dose homework first and then have a sitter on board. Caveat Emptor!
The free-base form of 4-acetoxy-DET also lends itself to pyro-assay technique. Smoking anywhere from 520 mg can provide an immersive full-flavored tryptamine experience. It takes a bit longer to fully develop and is longer lasting than DMT. Be prepared for the unexpected. There are only a few reports of this route thus far, and some variance in personal sensitivity has been observed. One person was completely smashed with 15 mg while another found the experience to be quite mild at the same level.
As far as I know no one has tried insufflating 4-acetoxy-DET yet. I will wager it's quite active via this route. Extreme caution is advised. I would start with no more than a few mg and then wait several hours before bumping it up any further. Please be careful folks--there's no need to repeat the tragic mistakes that others have made snorting large amounts of 2C-T-7.
4-acetoxy-DET can also be utilized for IM injection in HCl salt form. Leuner and Baer used between 0.05 mg and 0.28 mg per kg of body weight of the similar compound 4-hydroxy-DET, with the duration of effects averaging 3.5 hours. I suggest mixing up only enough solution for one session at a time since the material is quite unstable in water. It will begin turning black with decomposition within several hours time. For this reason 4-acetoxy-DET isn't suitable for liquid measure technique or long-term storage in solution. 4-acetoxy-DET has also been known to degrade from a crystalline powder into a dark brown goo if kept in a hot and/or humid environment. We currently have very little data on whether this affects the potency or quality of the experience. I recommend that it be kept in dry, crystalline form in a well-sealed glass vial, frozen if possible.
I feel compelled to describe the synergistic potential that exists between ketamine and the high-power tryptamines. Similar to our results with combining DMT/DPT/5-MeO-DMT with ketamine, combining 4-acetoxy-DET with ketamine also provides an incredible synergy. Ketamine is the perfect lubricant for a full-impact tryptamine bardo experience. A precisely matched yin for the yang allows the well-oiled universal gears to run full throttle straight to the source. Providing cooling dissociative waters to the white hot fire of the rising phoenix greatly reduces the physical and emotional aspects of the experience and makes the space much easier to navigate. Highly recommended for the cosmic-mystical near-death inclined! I would suggest that experimenters be well-versed with ketamine before trying it in combination. Be very cautious, start with low doses, and always have a sitter present while you are working it up. I find the optimal configuration to be a medium-to-high dose of the tryptamine and a low-to- medium dose of ketamine administered at the same time via IM injection. Of the many things I have tried the DMT/K combination is my favorite medicine for complete access to the source. Xenon gas while on mushrooms or LSD comes in at a close second. Perhaps if I had the good fortune to own as much xenon as the US government does, I would reconsider my vote. More on this topic in the months to come...
SET & SETTING
What I found particularly interesting about the approach of Leuner and Baer was that no suggestions were given to their subjects and the setting was as unstructured as possible. The test subjects were not told anything about the nature of the drug and had no idea what to expect. Most of the subjects were not even aware of the existence of psychedelic drugs in general, as these experiments were done before the LSD hysteria of the '60s. The set and setting was minimized and all external stimuli avoided. After administration via intramuscular injection each subject was brought into a darkened room and asked to relax. This kind of protocol seems to provide a balanced picture of the overall possible physical and psychological effects.
It was very surprising to note that cosmic-mystical type experiences occurred for only 14% of the test subjects in Leuner and Baer's studies, and the majority of these were cases of theologically-conscious individuals who had some predisposition towards such an experience. This says a lot for set and setting! Perhaps mystical experience is reserved for those who actively create it in their lives. Yet another clear example of the "what you think is what you get" precept. How you wish to create your experience is entirely up to you. A lot will depend on your preparation and intention going in to the experience.
This material can most closely be compared to psilocin/psilocybin in terms of the overall psychedelic effects, however it is clearly unique with its own vibration and experience. In lower-dose experiments you may find yourself completely functional and able to be active in a peaceful nature setting or safe outdoor environment. For medium- and high-dose trips I would strongly recommend that you have a plush and protected tripping pad set up so that you may relax and fully immerse yourself without any distractions. There is a good possibility of nausea occurring during the first half hour of the experience but it seems to pass relatively quickly for most people. As with other psychedelics it works best if you go into the experience with an empty stomach. There have been several reports of muscle tightness and/or tremors similar to what we have seen with 4-acetoxy-DIPT and DPT. However the physical side-effects observed thus far seem relatively benign. The visual element is particularly striking with this material. You will most likely enjoy a menagerie of rainbow visions and color hues. Music and sound can be incredibly influential in creating a specific and desired effect--sound creates space. This is quite evident by the many shamanic and mystical traditions that make use of sound to influence the course of consciousness. Alternatively you may wish to explore sensory deprivation, with eyes covered in darkness and ears padded in complete silence. Many possible configurations for inner exploration abound. That said, 4-acetoxy-DET seems best suited for small intimate groups or individual exploration in controlled settings. It demands respect, foresight, and careful consideration. This definitely isn't the type of drug you gobble down prior to heading off to your neighbors 4th-of-July BBQ. There are other new compounds that are much more suited to enhance social debauchery.
As a caveat readers should note that this primer was written by someone who has a vested interest in the dissemination of this material and the spread of pertinent information regarding its use. Although the author has tried to present a balanced collection of the available reports, the reader is reminded that everyone's reactions vary and extrapolating from this small collection of generally "glowing" reports should be done with caution.
TRIP REPORTS
5 mg and 10 mg (Orally?)
[The following report was adapted from the Shroomery forum on the Internet.] I've tried it twice at 5 mg and 10 mg. I've had a bad trip with 5 mg--this is definitely a potent tryptamine! Second trip at 10 mg was okay and very much like psilo(cyb)ine-containing mushrooms. I don't think I could differentiate between them in a blind test. But there are several worrisome signs: in both trials muscle tremors much nastier than the ones of 4-acetoxy-DIPT, and during the 10 mg trial I had some severe jaw tightening (this is not fun at all; my jaws were completely blocked for a full hour). Also in both cases there was a certain dark and ominous touch to the trip--mushrooms don't have that for me. Perhaps this is only my own idiosyncrasies and not something specific about this substance. My final judgement on this tryptamine is that if you have an easy access to mushrooms don't bother!
-- Meilikhios
10 mg Orally
I started with a low dose to get my feet wet. I don't enjoy psilocybin as much as other entheogens because of the trance and intoxication I experience; many times I find myself jerking straight up as if waking from a disturbing dream.
Tryptamine buzz begins in 20 minutes. (I had eaten no food for 6 hours prior to taking the drug.) I'm at the equivalent high of 1 gram of mushrooms in 50 minutes. From this time until 1.5 hours, my thinking becomes conceptual (like mushrooms), I have slight anxiety, colors are brighter (like mushrooms), I'm getting slightly intoxicated (not as bad as mushrooms), and I feel in control even though I'm unsure of the direction I'm heading. By two hours I've definitely peaked. My thinking is slightly trance-like, not at all like the more controllable, amphetamine-like thinking on phenethyl-amines. Very much mushroom-like, except I don't feel the usual "perhaps I've poisoned myself" toxicity. This is a clean substance. At this dose there is no great insight, weak visuals, slight euphoria, little anxiety, trance-like thinking, medium body load, no nausea, and a desire to try it at 15 mg. I was down in 4 hours. For two days after the experience I was able to clearly see through my sometimes self-defeating, habitual responses to negative stimuli.
-- Smith
13 mg Orally
Dissolved into ginger ale quite easily. It came on within 10 minutes of swallowing it on an empty stomach. Taste was barely noticeable. The visual iridescence I typically note with psilocybian mushrooms was definitely there. Conversation was easy, and we spent some time moving through personal material.
At one point in the conversation, I had a flash of memory from early childhood, being carried on my father's shoulders through the woods, including sunshine on the skin, a light breeze, and a sense of extraordinary well-being that was transmitted from the heart of the Universe. This flowered into a deep recognition that I was one with the Creator, and I felt I had come home to myself once again. Nothing I haven't experienced before, but with a renewal and deepening that was wonderfully wholesome and strengthening. I noted that I have had similar experiences with mescaline.
Still feeling the heart vibrate serenely with the Source, which revealed itself very deeply at the peak of the experience. We also processed a lot of interpersonal material in a very healing way. This is one of the deeper experiences I have ever had. The elusive plus-4 was definitely touched this evening.
After becoming one with the Father Creator, I began to gradually re-enter my ordinary awareness, and observed some of the side-effects of the material. This included a slight muscle tension, particularly in the neck and shoulders, that eased up a little with some stretching. Later that evening, Evenstar noted that I had some involuntary twitching and leg jumping that is usually only noticed when I take mescaline or certain other phenethylamines. I was quite tired the next day and spent the day lounging and occasionally dozing. Felt fine the third day, though I noted a slight slowing of my usual cognitive acumen.
The euphoria persisted well into the next week. On the way into work that Monday, I became so bucolic at one point that I inadvertently bumped my car into a truck in front of me at the light, a slight paint scrape on my bumper, but no major damage done. All in all, a material worth exploring further.
I would add that 4-acetoxy-DET is similar in some ways to psilocybin, lacking the "dark side." This could be advantageous in some circumstances. (Note: I have seen one report that suggested exactly the opposite. Personal idiosyncracies and differences are to be expected. -- Toad) However, it has been my experience that psilocybin does not affect my system like a stimulant at all. It is somewhat neutral with regard to the emergence of psychological/spiritual material, which allows for a greater psychic sensitivity and deeper journeying with it. The ability to tap into shadow material makes it quite powerful for plumbing the depths of the psyche in a way that I can't accomplish with say mescaline, or 4-acetoxy-DET (based on my one experience). I also think that to the degree I can plumb the deeper, darker regions of my psyche, I can also equally extend the antipodes of consciousness toward the higher regions as well.
-- Elfstone
18 mg Orally
±14 mg Pyrolyzed
Oh my. This is some surprise. I had recently tried 4-acetoxy-DET at 18 mg orally, and the effects were quite different. They were very similar to smoked DET experiences of some 35 years ago, my first and most enjoyable tryptamine experiences. During this last oral experience, there were no open-eye-visuals except for a shifting of visual gears through which everything was visually altered but nothing was melting. There were some slight closed-eye-visuals. Conversation and following a line of thought was not hampered by the substance and those of us present felt that while the substance was enjoyable by us older psychonauts, some of the younger ones might find it slightly boring. Empathogenic effects were noted by all present and it was agreed by all that a larger dose would be welcomed. The effects had been stated as "similar to three grams of Psilocybe cubensis," but those of us who tried 18 mg orally all felt that it was not anywhere near as strong as advertised. Still, it was a worthwhile experience.
So, some three weeks later, I pyrolyzed ~15 mg (actually 14 mg or less), which I had heard was an effective and potent dosage for this method. Pouring the carefully measured 15 mg from the capsule onto a bed of herbal material, it was covered with some more herb material to make enough for one good inhalation, which was then ignited and inhaled. Within seconds the familiar "DET rush" began, but this was much stronger and different than the oral dose. Almost immediately the DET threshold was somewhere in the far distant past; this was an immediate and extreme electric meltdown. Space became filled with floating luminous transparent brightly colored spheres that drifted randomly as if under the sea, and was shot through with multicolored flashes of ephemeral lightning. I was still visually in the same room from which I started, unlike some other tryps. I was indeed in a space similar to that experienced after ingesting a large amount of psilocybian mushrooms. This was quite a surprise. I had been expecting a nice, quiet, calm evening of DET and instead got suddenly and unexpectedly whirled into the center of a psilocybian maelstrom. Oh well, nothing to do now but sit back and enjoy it. For the first 45 minutes there was somewhat of a problem due to the immense amount of energy I had to channel, and for which I was unprepared. I was not expecting this intense a trip, but rather one similar to DET, which is much more like that period of time after the peak of an entheogenic experience. I have some nerve damage due to an automobile accident some years ago, which manifests as leg twitching during the peak portion of the most potent of entheogenic experiences.
I experienced continued and severe twitching in my calf and thigh muscles, which was only relieved by lying on the bed and moving sinuously, like a fish through water. This allowed me to channel the energy without spasms. During this time I continued to see floating spheres and experience the sensation of being under water. This was whether my eyes were open or closed. This experience of seeing the same thing whether one's eyes were open or closed is something I was familiar with from other tryptamines. However, with my eyes open, the room my body was in was always there behind the visuals. At no time did I feel threatened or experience any depersonalization or ego loss. I was still the same person I always am, just under a different set of reality issues. I had the Radiohead Kid A CD on the player and about halfway through it, I had to replace it with something more melodic. It was during this time that the twitching was at its most severe. I replaced it with Steve Hillage's Fish Rising, a somewhat more melodic if just as exotic piece, which helped a lot with the trembling.
After 45 minutes or so, the trembling subsided, everything ceased to melt endlessly, and I went to go sit in a chair. At this point the experience became much more fun.
My white cat Latex jumped into my lap and curled up upside down. I remember stroking the cat into a trance and talking it through an "out-of-kitty-experience." Both of us had a great time, and the cat's personality has become much more relaxed overall. What used to be a skittish cat is now open and friendly to visitors it has not met previously, something completely new. I remember eating some snacks I had left out about two hours into the experience. The fruit and juice was the best I had ever tasted, of course. The erotic side of this substance kept making itself known during the course of the journey and sex would be something remarkable, in my opinion. I was still some distance away from baseline after more than 5 hours when I retired for the evening. Sleep was somewhat difficult. The next day I had a headache and a hangover. I am not certain if this was due to the extremely taxing physical nature of the experience or my getting old, but I am not used to hangovers from psychedelics. I would not hesitate to try this substance again, but would use a smaller dose next time. I think it might be more fun without some of the extreme effects, if they can be mitigated. I would also like to try it again orally to confirm the vast difference in effects in similar dosages when pyrolyzed or ingested orally. The next day I looked at the capsule that had contained the powder and there was still at least 1 mg remaining in it. This only reinforces my opinion that a smaller dose would be worth trying. I look forward to having the opportunity to try pyrolytic assays of 5 mg and 10 mg sometime in the future, as well.
As my 4-acetoxy-DET experiences have been consistently marred by about 1 hour of uncontrollable muscle spasms in the thighs before settling down to something more enjoyable, I don't think that I want to try the high-end just yet.
-- Tao Jones
1618 mg Orally
Very similar to mushrooms, almost identical "waves" and overall duration. Smooth on the body; no side-effects noted. Definitively an interesting material. Not completely satisfied--there was something uncomfortable about it when compared to psilocybin/mushrooms. Maybe it is just because I'm very used to psilocybian mushrooms and this is different; maybe not. I would take it again but at a higher level (25 mg?). At this level (1618 mg) I often felt like being between the worlds and out of touch with the experience--like being a detached spectator. I imagine this could be different with higher dosages!? Its cousin 4-acetoxy-DIPT proved to be much more spectacular for me. While this one is very similar to psilocybin the 4-acetoxy-DIPT is a show of its own--a very interesting show!
-- Crocodile
535 mg Pyrolyzed
1620 mg Orally
My first experience with 4-acetoxy-DET was a bust. Having heard that 20 mg was active when smoked, I tried it with a friend. Unfortunately, we didn't have a pipe handy, so I poured two piles of the stuff directly onto the electric range, and we rolled up some paper straws. After it liquefied and began to vaporize, I realized that we had made a mistake making two piles, since--when we each took a break after the first hit (to breath some air)--the vapor was still rising and drifting off without being consumed. I probably got 510 mg, and then I was hit with the overpowering need to immediately vomit. I turned towards the sink and blew chunks (my recently-consumed roadside taco-stand lunch). Meanwhile, my friend kept at sucking up the vapors from both piles. He probably got about a 2030 mg dose, although it is pretty hard to say for sure what either of us got. The only effect I experienced was a slight enhancement of color. My friend said that it hit him like a ton of bricks--similar to DMT. He felt as though he were fully-immersed in a 3 gram mushroom trip, and he had to sit down. However, his effects rapidly wore down to about 1 gram of mushrooms.
I had heard from one individual who tried smoking 15 mg, and then later 20 mg, who had little to no effect from both attempts. He was surprised and perhaps skeptical to learn from me that I had heard that 18 mg was a reasonably-active oral dose. I get the feeling that the smoked dose may be more variable, and it could be harder to hit the nail on the head. It is possible that the heat breaks down the activity. Certainly, if I ever smoked it again, I would do so on an empty stomach (since I have never before had such an immediate need to vomit). Orally, however, this compound was another story
While at Burning Man, I had the opportunity to sample a 1620 mg dose. (My scale weighs within an accuracy of ρ2 mg--and I weighed out 18 mg--but due to the potential to over- or under-weigh by 2 mg, I can't really say for sure that this is what I took. I have often wondered whether or not the psychonauts reporting in ER have better scales than I do, or if perhaps the exact doses reported on aren't really so exact.)
I was hanging out after dark at the "Lush" camp, near "Emerald City," waiting to hear the band Lost at Last, whom I first heard about a year ago at the "Countdown to 2012" party in San Francisco. The drug came on before the band started. I first noticed that my stomach felt as though it was a rubber ball, being gripped firmly by two hands that were squeezing just slightly. No real nausea to speak of, but I was aware that something was going on. It is hard to characterize the effects of a new compound at Burning Man, since the environment is already so surreal. Nevertheless, if forced to make comparisons, I would say that this stuff is very similar to psilocybian mushrooms. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that with known doses of this as a pure compound available, I don't know that I'll ever need/want to do mushrooms again. My "about 18 mg" dose was strong enough to get the full flavor of the effects, but not so strong to be overwhelming. The perfect dose for being where I was at the time (although I occasionally felt slightly claustrophobic in more dense areas of the crowd while the band was playing, and had to move to the less populated playa). If I was at home or with a small group of friends, I would definitely take a higher dose, more suited to a vision quest. This is an excellent material, which is sure to find a well-worn spot as a favored pharmacotheon.
-- David Aardvark
20 mg Orally
T+20: Slight head change.
T+45: That head change increased gradually, and at the 45 minute point it was kicking in pretty strongly. The walls and ceiling were moving in waves and fluid patterns. There were electrical looking color waves in the air, like thin lines of rainbow colors squirming through. All not unlike a psilocybin experience. I felt a hint of nausea but not too uncomfortable. It was gone in another 1/2 hour.
T+1 to 1:15: I am definitely peaking at this moment. I have the mushroom-drunk inebriation feeling, but not as confusing. Spiritually/emotionally I am pretty intact although I would compare the audio/visuals of this dose to about 35 grams of psilocybian mushrooms. I feel that I am capable of pushing myself in any direction for exploration but this time I choose not to. I get an overwhelming feeling of happiness at times, where I just want to laugh and feel like I have a perma-grin on my face. I also feel stimulated to the point where I have to get up and walk around. Time seems to be going slower--I feel like I have been tripping for 3 hours.
T+2: I have passed the peak and can definitely feel the decline at this time. Although I still have a good amount of audio/visual effects, I know that in another 1 to 1.5 hours the visuals will subside and go away completely. I notice that I can see sound and perhaps hear light--I enjoy this greatly. I watch my girlfriend speak and can see the words come out of her mouth and see her "energy," which is very amusing.
T+4: No more visuals, although I don't feel like I have just taken a drug with that much potency. I don't feel tired and exhausted like I might from 2-CT-7 or LSD, or even 5-MeO-DIPT. I still continue to have a vibrant conversation with my girlfriend for another 23 hours before I am completely baseline.
T+6: I don't feel exhausted, but just have the feeling that I want to sleep. And I sleep well.
I agree with Elfstone when he says that this substance is neutral in where it goes. It didn't seem to push me in any particular direction but I could also sense that if I choose to push my self, I would be easily transported. I know that if I had closed my eyes and focused I could easily be taken away to a beautiful mystical place. IMHO, this stuff is great--too good.
-- Bender420
At around 20 mg this is a wondrous material. It shares much of the best of psilocybian mushrooms but in a friendly and pleasant package. In contrast to 'shrooms it produces a very steady state and user-friendly response rather than the wave-like and often unpredictable experience of 'shrooms. It strikes me as a truly empathogenic psychedelic. Although sometimes a little too much so. Some of the boundary-dissolving experiences have created surprising and unexpected juxtapositions of perception such as (with 27 mg) finding myself, a chest of drawers, and an unpotted Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus partially overlapping in a trans-spatial/-temporal melange. Within small, localized regions of overlap we seemingly co-existed as a fused chimera but existed separately outside of those areas. It was quite a bizarre sensation. I have no clue how the cactus got mixed in as I hadn't seen it except in my mind at that time.
Partially merging or overlapping with solid objects or other things around me has been fairly common for me at 25 mg or above. Most people would find 1822 mg enjoyable and useful. Many experienced people would appreciate 25 mg even more, despite the increase in boundary-dissolving experiences (lots of us like having our boundaries dissolved and aren't threatened by ego-loss). Above 25 mg: whether a person likes this or not appears to hinge around their level of experience and comfort with intense peak states and potential depersonalization. It appears to be an excellent solvent for removing boundaries and illusions. Preparedness may have a lot to do with this, as might mental state, but my level of experience with it is inadequate to know--yet.
At a dose of around 30 mg a friend experienced a complete ego-death rivaling anything he had experienced previously with high-dose LSD, and found himself obliterated in total fusion with the Universal Mind. He also perceived himself as partially merged with two or more malevolent entities, which he perceived as feeding off his mind and emotions while attempting to direct or influence his behavior. This was found intensely distressing and bothered him a great deal even after the fact. What I found fascinating is that this type of astral parasitism was in complete accord with what he believed as a part of his healing practices, yet it had never bothered him prior to experiencing it as real.
Of any new substance I've experienced in the last 20 years nothing has impressed me more than this one. I'd place it right up there with mescaline, 'shrooms, and DMT as one of my absolute favorite experiences and with no more potentially negative elements than any of those three. The euphoric elements are excellent. The clarity of mind, visual perception, and wonderfully-delicate colored imagery, are nothing short of remarkable.
The feeling of shared space and mind is great. I've left every trip feeling as if my connections between both friends and universe have been greatly enriched. In fact anyone I've tripped around while using this material feels like family to me now. At all but the highest level experienced so far there has been a calm sense of belonging wherever I was and a distinct feeling as if I was smiling inside. Even at the higher levels it has been incredible despite a touch of edginess in spots.
I'd recommend that people don't use over 25 mg unless they can deal with potential depersonalization and universal fusion accompanied by extremely altered body perception. If this is not a threat to people then higher levels might be found quite valuable to experience. I would suspect a truly transcendent experience might be possible.
It has also left me with a lot of residuals in thought, perception, and my phosphenes. I've liked feeling more connected with the world; keenly aware of both the needs and limitations of others and much more tolerant and less judgmental. My sense of empathy even for people I disagree with has persisted long after the drug has worn off. I'm not certain that portions of my mind weren't rewired in a very positive direction after only a few experiences with it. Certain aspects of the experience (at 2527 mg) have been perplexing and defy definition.
Smoking 20 mg proved overwhelming and distressing mentally and was very hard on my lungs (very much like DMT in the physical impact on my lungs). It caused a literal tsunami of images, sensations, thoughts and colors swirling through me. Something in-between 'shrooms and DMT but with a character all its own. I remember relatively little about the experience except being glad that it was over. I wish I'd read Tao Jones' account prior to smoking, so as not to have felt like I wasted some precious material without a productive result. In retrospect, I'd probably start out by smoking a relatively few mg and working my way up slowly. (I'd likely use the same low dose of 5 mg, with 25 mg bumps as needed, if insufflating it.)
I also noticed that when using 1822 mg, the experience lasted about 2 hours with a roughly 20 minute onset and a nice mild "glow" after the fact (used orally). When using 25 mg to ~27 mg (the most I've done so far in a handful of trials), the peak still ran around 2 hours but the experience was quite discernible at a diminished intensity for 34 more hours. A fascinating thing observed with friends and also noted by Leuner and Baer is that not simply the level of effects but also the duration can vary dramatically from one person to the next. For instance the first time I tried it was with 3 friends. One person was back in 90 minutes, 2 of us were back in around 2 hours whereas the 4th was going for almost an hour longer.
I suspect that for psycholytic therapy currently involving LSD or 'shrooms, this substance might prove a favorite among therapists. Verbal interaction is easy, duration is short, and effectiveness is excellent. Depersonalization seems to be controllable by regulating dosage, permitting a wide range of applications. For people seeking depersonalization and ego-death experiences, this material (at 30 mg or above) might prove a better choice than LSD due to its shorter duration and greater clarity of mind. My impression though--based on only a few experiences--is that applications of this substance should be restricted to normal or fairly normal people. I'd suggest that psychotics and overly sensitive or fearful/anxious people be strongly discouraged from its use, or else be accompanied by professionals who are both competent at dealing with potential crisis states and extremely experienced (specifically including the prior use of this material by themselves).
-- Justin Case
1830 mg Orally
I was excited to try this compound, as it was the first that I would actually get to try in a pure form so closely related to psilocybin. Granted I have had plenty of tryptamine experience, with some synthetic materials but most of natural origin. Psilocybe cubensis is native to my area so I have explored this mushroom in depth. The variability in the experience between strains and species of the natural mushrooms is obvious. My interest in trying synthetic psilocin or psilocybin is much more to confirm that the additional indoles baeocystine and norbaeocystine color the mushroom experience. So when the opportunity to try 4-acetoxy-DET arrived, I was delighted.
Wow! This stuff is one of the cleanest, least body-load tryptamine I've ever experienced. It has a duration that mimics psilocin, onset 1020 minutes, peak 23 hours, and an easy half hour glide down. I assayed it first at 18 mg and found it much to my liking. The color visuals induced by this oral dose were very prominent--beautiful and fast geometries. It had a bit of a psilocin nature, but not totally. It was nearly overwhelming, although I never lost sight of the place I was in. It was very beautiful. But visuals alone, as much as I love them, do not entirely define a good psychedelic for me. This substance kept my head clear, my thinking was absolutely impeccable, despite the sensory overload. This was a good overload, by the way. The bodily sensations were incredible. I can only describe them as wave after wave of full-body orgasms washing over me. Later investigations brought the dosages up to 30 mg with nothing but the positive effects increasing. There were more colorful visuals washing over me in orgasmic glory. Absolutely no nausea. Absolutely no dark corners. This is definitely one of my top tryptamines. I rank it right up there with DMT and psilocin. (Note that DPT did not agree with me at all, so it's not like I'm disposed to liking all tryptamines.)
-- August
It could be said that the 4th-position tryptamines represent some of the best psychedelics in the tryptamine family. Among the classics, psilocin and psilocybin rank right up near the top. Many possible substitution patterns exist in this family, some of which have been synthesized and extensively tested. One such 4th-position tryptamine that deserves consideration and investigation is the N,N-diethyl cousin of psilocin/psilocybin called 4-hydroxy-DET (see entry #16 in TIHKAL) or more commonly referred to as CZ-74 in the scientific literature. CZ-74 and its phosphoryloxy sister compound CEY-19 have an interesting history. They were first synthesized in the Sandoz lab by Albert Hofmann and F. Troxler in the late 1950s (Hofmann 1958; Troxler et al. 1959). A few years later these compounds were provided to several German research scientists for evaluation and testing under the direction of Hofmann and A. Cerletti (Leuner & Baer 1965).
Several possible esters can be attached to the 4th position of the indole ring, which all share a similar pharmacologic profile. Those compounds that have been extensively tested are the 4-hydroxy, 4-phosphoryloxy, and 4-acetoxy esters. Once inside the human body, the 4-phosphoryloxy ester of DMT (psilocybin) has been shown to rapidly metabolize into 4-hydroxy-DMT (psilocin) by phosphatase enzymes (Hasler et al. 1997). It is theorized that the 4-acetoxy ester behaves in a similar way and gets metabolized into the active 4-hydroxy compound via esterase enzymes (Shulgin 1999).
In our last report, titled "4-acetoxy-DIPT Primer," we mentioned that initial trials indicated the effects of the 4-acetoxy and 4-hydroxy esters were essentially the same. After further experimentation with 4-hydroxy and 4-acetoxy esters we have come to a different conclusion. While our experimental data points are still somewhat limited, it seems that there are definite subjective differences between the esters. Most notable was the extended duration, slight increase in potency, and smoother effects with the 4-acetoxy compound. Test subjects reported the same alteration scheme and general psychedelic effects with 4-hydroxy and 4-acetoxy esters, however all said they preferred the 4-acetoxy, even though some of them couldn't exactly put their finger on why. From the standpoint of chemical stability the 4-acetoxy ester is better since it doesn't rapidly degrade in the presence of oxygen like the 4-hydroxy form does. It's quite possible the acetoxy compound may be transported into the brain prior to being deacetylated by the blood esterases, and thus would be considered an entirely separate and individual drug. These pharmacological questions form yet another fascinating chapter to the 4th-position story.
In the mid 1960s, Dr. Hanscarl Leuner and G. Baer published a series of studies involving extensive clinical trials of CZ-74 with human volunteers (Leuner & Baer 1965; Baer 1967; Leuner 1962). They found CZ-74 to produce a psychedelic effect that differed only slightly from LSD and psilocybin. The overall effects were virtually identical in terms of the qualitative experience reported by their test subjects, with the only major differences being the dosage levels and duration. The physiological effects were found to be slight and within normal limits, even with high doses (Leuner & Baer 1965).
Leuner and Baer provided multiple sessions for their test subjects and noticed the pattern of inebriation changed over the course of repeated administrations. The most marked changes in the reports were the reduction of side-effects involving concentration and the thinking process (Baer 1967; Leuner 1962). Clearly, as one gets more comfortable and adept with navigating a new psychedelic space the negative effects tend to be perceived as being less dramatic.
In looking at the results of Leuner and Baer some observations can be made regarding the nature of CZ-74 and 4-acetoxy-DET. The physical effects were well established. There were slight increases in pulse rate, body temperature, and blood pressure, nausea, hypersalivation, reduced reaction of the pupils indicating mydriasis, somewhat increased reflexes, and coordination disturbances observed. The classic paranormal psychic effects of psilocin, LSD, and mescaline were also clearly present. The most frequent effects reported were a distortion of body image (100%), and optical hallucinations (90%), with optical sensations forming the biggest group of psychedelic effects reported in the study. The second largest grouping of reported effects were inhibition of speech articulation, nausea, euphoria, dysphoria, restlessness, and clouded consciousness, followed by acoustic hallucinations, paranoid thoughts, cosmic-mystical experience, age regression, and time distortion. Rarely, and only with the highest doses, did they notice extreme psychotic symptoms, with depersonalization, delirium, schizophrenic behavior with catatonic fits, and temporary paranoia happening (Baer 1967).
DOSING STRATEGIES
Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with 4-acetoxy-DET and provide it to a few friends. This compound shares in some of the positive qualities and attributes of psilocin/psilocybin yet has a shorter duration of 36 hours when taken orally. Similar to our results with other obscure tryptamine and phenethylamine research compounds, I have noticed a fairly wide variance in personal preference of dosage for 4-acetoxy-DET. Dosage levels varied from 1033 mg orally with 1822 mg being the average. I would liken the dosage response curve and effects to psilocin/psilocybin in that things get much more serious beyond a certain point. The line seems to hover around 25 mg with a sharp rise in the potential for ego dissolution beyond that. More sensitive individuals may find the line to be much lower. My advice is to tread carefully when experimenting with this powerful tryptamine and work it up slowly in progressive trials starting with 1020 mg. In my experiments I have preferred higher dosages of this compound, feeling more fluent and free to explore the space as the veil gets completely lifted. However, I have witnessed several difficult trips with this material and I'm by no means suggesting that high doses (above 25 mg) will be appropriate for the majority of readers. If you choose to experiment with high doses I would recommend that you do your low- and medium-dose homework first and then have a sitter on board. Caveat Emptor!
The free-base form of 4-acetoxy-DET also lends itself to pyro-assay technique. Smoking anywhere from 520 mg can provide an immersive full-flavored tryptamine experience. It takes a bit longer to fully develop and is longer lasting than DMT. Be prepared for the unexpected. There are only a few reports of this route thus far, and some variance in personal sensitivity has been observed. One person was completely smashed with 15 mg while another found the experience to be quite mild at the same level.
As far as I know no one has tried insufflating 4-acetoxy-DET yet. I will wager it's quite active via this route. Extreme caution is advised. I would start with no more than a few mg and then wait several hours before bumping it up any further. Please be careful folks--there's no need to repeat the tragic mistakes that others have made snorting large amounts of 2C-T-7.
4-acetoxy-DET can also be utilized for IM injection in HCl salt form. Leuner and Baer used between 0.05 mg and 0.28 mg per kg of body weight of the similar compound 4-hydroxy-DET, with the duration of effects averaging 3.5 hours. I suggest mixing up only enough solution for one session at a time since the material is quite unstable in water. It will begin turning black with decomposition within several hours time. For this reason 4-acetoxy-DET isn't suitable for liquid measure technique or long-term storage in solution. 4-acetoxy-DET has also been known to degrade from a crystalline powder into a dark brown goo if kept in a hot and/or humid environment. We currently have very little data on whether this affects the potency or quality of the experience. I recommend that it be kept in dry, crystalline form in a well-sealed glass vial, frozen if possible.
I feel compelled to describe the synergistic potential that exists between ketamine and the high-power tryptamines. Similar to our results with combining DMT/DPT/5-MeO-DMT with ketamine, combining 4-acetoxy-DET with ketamine also provides an incredible synergy. Ketamine is the perfect lubricant for a full-impact tryptamine bardo experience. A precisely matched yin for the yang allows the well-oiled universal gears to run full throttle straight to the source. Providing cooling dissociative waters to the white hot fire of the rising phoenix greatly reduces the physical and emotional aspects of the experience and makes the space much easier to navigate. Highly recommended for the cosmic-mystical near-death inclined! I would suggest that experimenters be well-versed with ketamine before trying it in combination. Be very cautious, start with low doses, and always have a sitter present while you are working it up. I find the optimal configuration to be a medium-to-high dose of the tryptamine and a low-to- medium dose of ketamine administered at the same time via IM injection. Of the many things I have tried the DMT/K combination is my favorite medicine for complete access to the source. Xenon gas while on mushrooms or LSD comes in at a close second. Perhaps if I had the good fortune to own as much xenon as the US government does, I would reconsider my vote. More on this topic in the months to come...
SET & SETTING
What I found particularly interesting about the approach of Leuner and Baer was that no suggestions were given to their subjects and the setting was as unstructured as possible. The test subjects were not told anything about the nature of the drug and had no idea what to expect. Most of the subjects were not even aware of the existence of psychedelic drugs in general, as these experiments were done before the LSD hysteria of the '60s. The set and setting was minimized and all external stimuli avoided. After administration via intramuscular injection each subject was brought into a darkened room and asked to relax. This kind of protocol seems to provide a balanced picture of the overall possible physical and psychological effects.
It was very surprising to note that cosmic-mystical type experiences occurred for only 14% of the test subjects in Leuner and Baer's studies, and the majority of these were cases of theologically-conscious individuals who had some predisposition towards such an experience. This says a lot for set and setting! Perhaps mystical experience is reserved for those who actively create it in their lives. Yet another clear example of the "what you think is what you get" precept. How you wish to create your experience is entirely up to you. A lot will depend on your preparation and intention going in to the experience.
This material can most closely be compared to psilocin/psilocybin in terms of the overall psychedelic effects, however it is clearly unique with its own vibration and experience. In lower-dose experiments you may find yourself completely functional and able to be active in a peaceful nature setting or safe outdoor environment. For medium- and high-dose trips I would strongly recommend that you have a plush and protected tripping pad set up so that you may relax and fully immerse yourself without any distractions. There is a good possibility of nausea occurring during the first half hour of the experience but it seems to pass relatively quickly for most people. As with other psychedelics it works best if you go into the experience with an empty stomach. There have been several reports of muscle tightness and/or tremors similar to what we have seen with 4-acetoxy-DIPT and DPT. However the physical side-effects observed thus far seem relatively benign. The visual element is particularly striking with this material. You will most likely enjoy a menagerie of rainbow visions and color hues. Music and sound can be incredibly influential in creating a specific and desired effect--sound creates space. This is quite evident by the many shamanic and mystical traditions that make use of sound to influence the course of consciousness. Alternatively you may wish to explore sensory deprivation, with eyes covered in darkness and ears padded in complete silence. Many possible configurations for inner exploration abound. That said, 4-acetoxy-DET seems best suited for small intimate groups or individual exploration in controlled settings. It demands respect, foresight, and careful consideration. This definitely isn't the type of drug you gobble down prior to heading off to your neighbors 4th-of-July BBQ. There are other new compounds that are much more suited to enhance social debauchery.
As a caveat readers should note that this primer was written by someone who has a vested interest in the dissemination of this material and the spread of pertinent information regarding its use. Although the author has tried to present a balanced collection of the available reports, the reader is reminded that everyone's reactions vary and extrapolating from this small collection of generally "glowing" reports should be done with caution.
TRIP REPORTS
5 mg and 10 mg (Orally?)
[The following report was adapted from the Shroomery forum on the Internet.] I've tried it twice at 5 mg and 10 mg. I've had a bad trip with 5 mg--this is definitely a potent tryptamine! Second trip at 10 mg was okay and very much like psilo(cyb)ine-containing mushrooms. I don't think I could differentiate between them in a blind test. But there are several worrisome signs: in both trials muscle tremors much nastier than the ones of 4-acetoxy-DIPT, and during the 10 mg trial I had some severe jaw tightening (this is not fun at all; my jaws were completely blocked for a full hour). Also in both cases there was a certain dark and ominous touch to the trip--mushrooms don't have that for me. Perhaps this is only my own idiosyncrasies and not something specific about this substance. My final judgement on this tryptamine is that if you have an easy access to mushrooms don't bother!
-- Meilikhios
10 mg Orally
I started with a low dose to get my feet wet. I don't enjoy psilocybin as much as other entheogens because of the trance and intoxication I experience; many times I find myself jerking straight up as if waking from a disturbing dream.
Tryptamine buzz begins in 20 minutes. (I had eaten no food for 6 hours prior to taking the drug.) I'm at the equivalent high of 1 gram of mushrooms in 50 minutes. From this time until 1.5 hours, my thinking becomes conceptual (like mushrooms), I have slight anxiety, colors are brighter (like mushrooms), I'm getting slightly intoxicated (not as bad as mushrooms), and I feel in control even though I'm unsure of the direction I'm heading. By two hours I've definitely peaked. My thinking is slightly trance-like, not at all like the more controllable, amphetamine-like thinking on phenethyl-amines. Very much mushroom-like, except I don't feel the usual "perhaps I've poisoned myself" toxicity. This is a clean substance. At this dose there is no great insight, weak visuals, slight euphoria, little anxiety, trance-like thinking, medium body load, no nausea, and a desire to try it at 15 mg. I was down in 4 hours. For two days after the experience I was able to clearly see through my sometimes self-defeating, habitual responses to negative stimuli.
-- Smith
13 mg Orally
Dissolved into ginger ale quite easily. It came on within 10 minutes of swallowing it on an empty stomach. Taste was barely noticeable. The visual iridescence I typically note with psilocybian mushrooms was definitely there. Conversation was easy, and we spent some time moving through personal material.
At one point in the conversation, I had a flash of memory from early childhood, being carried on my father's shoulders through the woods, including sunshine on the skin, a light breeze, and a sense of extraordinary well-being that was transmitted from the heart of the Universe. This flowered into a deep recognition that I was one with the Creator, and I felt I had come home to myself once again. Nothing I haven't experienced before, but with a renewal and deepening that was wonderfully wholesome and strengthening. I noted that I have had similar experiences with mescaline.
Still feeling the heart vibrate serenely with the Source, which revealed itself very deeply at the peak of the experience. We also processed a lot of interpersonal material in a very healing way. This is one of the deeper experiences I have ever had. The elusive plus-4 was definitely touched this evening.
After becoming one with the Father Creator, I began to gradually re-enter my ordinary awareness, and observed some of the side-effects of the material. This included a slight muscle tension, particularly in the neck and shoulders, that eased up a little with some stretching. Later that evening, Evenstar noted that I had some involuntary twitching and leg jumping that is usually only noticed when I take mescaline or certain other phenethylamines. I was quite tired the next day and spent the day lounging and occasionally dozing. Felt fine the third day, though I noted a slight slowing of my usual cognitive acumen.
The euphoria persisted well into the next week. On the way into work that Monday, I became so bucolic at one point that I inadvertently bumped my car into a truck in front of me at the light, a slight paint scrape on my bumper, but no major damage done. All in all, a material worth exploring further.
I would add that 4-acetoxy-DET is similar in some ways to psilocybin, lacking the "dark side." This could be advantageous in some circumstances. (Note: I have seen one report that suggested exactly the opposite. Personal idiosyncracies and differences are to be expected. -- Toad) However, it has been my experience that psilocybin does not affect my system like a stimulant at all. It is somewhat neutral with regard to the emergence of psychological/spiritual material, which allows for a greater psychic sensitivity and deeper journeying with it. The ability to tap into shadow material makes it quite powerful for plumbing the depths of the psyche in a way that I can't accomplish with say mescaline, or 4-acetoxy-DET (based on my one experience). I also think that to the degree I can plumb the deeper, darker regions of my psyche, I can also equally extend the antipodes of consciousness toward the higher regions as well.
-- Elfstone
18 mg Orally
±14 mg Pyrolyzed
Oh my. This is some surprise. I had recently tried 4-acetoxy-DET at 18 mg orally, and the effects were quite different. They were very similar to smoked DET experiences of some 35 years ago, my first and most enjoyable tryptamine experiences. During this last oral experience, there were no open-eye-visuals except for a shifting of visual gears through which everything was visually altered but nothing was melting. There were some slight closed-eye-visuals. Conversation and following a line of thought was not hampered by the substance and those of us present felt that while the substance was enjoyable by us older psychonauts, some of the younger ones might find it slightly boring. Empathogenic effects were noted by all present and it was agreed by all that a larger dose would be welcomed. The effects had been stated as "similar to three grams of Psilocybe cubensis," but those of us who tried 18 mg orally all felt that it was not anywhere near as strong as advertised. Still, it was a worthwhile experience.
So, some three weeks later, I pyrolyzed ~15 mg (actually 14 mg or less), which I had heard was an effective and potent dosage for this method. Pouring the carefully measured 15 mg from the capsule onto a bed of herbal material, it was covered with some more herb material to make enough for one good inhalation, which was then ignited and inhaled. Within seconds the familiar "DET rush" began, but this was much stronger and different than the oral dose. Almost immediately the DET threshold was somewhere in the far distant past; this was an immediate and extreme electric meltdown. Space became filled with floating luminous transparent brightly colored spheres that drifted randomly as if under the sea, and was shot through with multicolored flashes of ephemeral lightning. I was still visually in the same room from which I started, unlike some other tryps. I was indeed in a space similar to that experienced after ingesting a large amount of psilocybian mushrooms. This was quite a surprise. I had been expecting a nice, quiet, calm evening of DET and instead got suddenly and unexpectedly whirled into the center of a psilocybian maelstrom. Oh well, nothing to do now but sit back and enjoy it. For the first 45 minutes there was somewhat of a problem due to the immense amount of energy I had to channel, and for which I was unprepared. I was not expecting this intense a trip, but rather one similar to DET, which is much more like that period of time after the peak of an entheogenic experience. I have some nerve damage due to an automobile accident some years ago, which manifests as leg twitching during the peak portion of the most potent of entheogenic experiences.
I experienced continued and severe twitching in my calf and thigh muscles, which was only relieved by lying on the bed and moving sinuously, like a fish through water. This allowed me to channel the energy without spasms. During this time I continued to see floating spheres and experience the sensation of being under water. This was whether my eyes were open or closed. This experience of seeing the same thing whether one's eyes were open or closed is something I was familiar with from other tryptamines. However, with my eyes open, the room my body was in was always there behind the visuals. At no time did I feel threatened or experience any depersonalization or ego loss. I was still the same person I always am, just under a different set of reality issues. I had the Radiohead Kid A CD on the player and about halfway through it, I had to replace it with something more melodic. It was during this time that the twitching was at its most severe. I replaced it with Steve Hillage's Fish Rising, a somewhat more melodic if just as exotic piece, which helped a lot with the trembling.
After 45 minutes or so, the trembling subsided, everything ceased to melt endlessly, and I went to go sit in a chair. At this point the experience became much more fun.
My white cat Latex jumped into my lap and curled up upside down. I remember stroking the cat into a trance and talking it through an "out-of-kitty-experience." Both of us had a great time, and the cat's personality has become much more relaxed overall. What used to be a skittish cat is now open and friendly to visitors it has not met previously, something completely new. I remember eating some snacks I had left out about two hours into the experience. The fruit and juice was the best I had ever tasted, of course. The erotic side of this substance kept making itself known during the course of the journey and sex would be something remarkable, in my opinion. I was still some distance away from baseline after more than 5 hours when I retired for the evening. Sleep was somewhat difficult. The next day I had a headache and a hangover. I am not certain if this was due to the extremely taxing physical nature of the experience or my getting old, but I am not used to hangovers from psychedelics. I would not hesitate to try this substance again, but would use a smaller dose next time. I think it might be more fun without some of the extreme effects, if they can be mitigated. I would also like to try it again orally to confirm the vast difference in effects in similar dosages when pyrolyzed or ingested orally. The next day I looked at the capsule that had contained the powder and there was still at least 1 mg remaining in it. This only reinforces my opinion that a smaller dose would be worth trying. I look forward to having the opportunity to try pyrolytic assays of 5 mg and 10 mg sometime in the future, as well.
As my 4-acetoxy-DET experiences have been consistently marred by about 1 hour of uncontrollable muscle spasms in the thighs before settling down to something more enjoyable, I don't think that I want to try the high-end just yet.
-- Tao Jones
1618 mg Orally
Very similar to mushrooms, almost identical "waves" and overall duration. Smooth on the body; no side-effects noted. Definitively an interesting material. Not completely satisfied--there was something uncomfortable about it when compared to psilocybin/mushrooms. Maybe it is just because I'm very used to psilocybian mushrooms and this is different; maybe not. I would take it again but at a higher level (25 mg?). At this level (1618 mg) I often felt like being between the worlds and out of touch with the experience--like being a detached spectator. I imagine this could be different with higher dosages!? Its cousin 4-acetoxy-DIPT proved to be much more spectacular for me. While this one is very similar to psilocybin the 4-acetoxy-DIPT is a show of its own--a very interesting show!
-- Crocodile
535 mg Pyrolyzed
1620 mg Orally
My first experience with 4-acetoxy-DET was a bust. Having heard that 20 mg was active when smoked, I tried it with a friend. Unfortunately, we didn't have a pipe handy, so I poured two piles of the stuff directly onto the electric range, and we rolled up some paper straws. After it liquefied and began to vaporize, I realized that we had made a mistake making two piles, since--when we each took a break after the first hit (to breath some air)--the vapor was still rising and drifting off without being consumed. I probably got 510 mg, and then I was hit with the overpowering need to immediately vomit. I turned towards the sink and blew chunks (my recently-consumed roadside taco-stand lunch). Meanwhile, my friend kept at sucking up the vapors from both piles. He probably got about a 2030 mg dose, although it is pretty hard to say for sure what either of us got. The only effect I experienced was a slight enhancement of color. My friend said that it hit him like a ton of bricks--similar to DMT. He felt as though he were fully-immersed in a 3 gram mushroom trip, and he had to sit down. However, his effects rapidly wore down to about 1 gram of mushrooms.
I had heard from one individual who tried smoking 15 mg, and then later 20 mg, who had little to no effect from both attempts. He was surprised and perhaps skeptical to learn from me that I had heard that 18 mg was a reasonably-active oral dose. I get the feeling that the smoked dose may be more variable, and it could be harder to hit the nail on the head. It is possible that the heat breaks down the activity. Certainly, if I ever smoked it again, I would do so on an empty stomach (since I have never before had such an immediate need to vomit). Orally, however, this compound was another story
While at Burning Man, I had the opportunity to sample a 1620 mg dose. (My scale weighs within an accuracy of ρ2 mg--and I weighed out 18 mg--but due to the potential to over- or under-weigh by 2 mg, I can't really say for sure that this is what I took. I have often wondered whether or not the psychonauts reporting in ER have better scales than I do, or if perhaps the exact doses reported on aren't really so exact.)
I was hanging out after dark at the "Lush" camp, near "Emerald City," waiting to hear the band Lost at Last, whom I first heard about a year ago at the "Countdown to 2012" party in San Francisco. The drug came on before the band started. I first noticed that my stomach felt as though it was a rubber ball, being gripped firmly by two hands that were squeezing just slightly. No real nausea to speak of, but I was aware that something was going on. It is hard to characterize the effects of a new compound at Burning Man, since the environment is already so surreal. Nevertheless, if forced to make comparisons, I would say that this stuff is very similar to psilocybian mushrooms. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that with known doses of this as a pure compound available, I don't know that I'll ever need/want to do mushrooms again. My "about 18 mg" dose was strong enough to get the full flavor of the effects, but not so strong to be overwhelming. The perfect dose for being where I was at the time (although I occasionally felt slightly claustrophobic in more dense areas of the crowd while the band was playing, and had to move to the less populated playa). If I was at home or with a small group of friends, I would definitely take a higher dose, more suited to a vision quest. This is an excellent material, which is sure to find a well-worn spot as a favored pharmacotheon.
-- David Aardvark
20 mg Orally
T+20: Slight head change.
T+45: That head change increased gradually, and at the 45 minute point it was kicking in pretty strongly. The walls and ceiling were moving in waves and fluid patterns. There were electrical looking color waves in the air, like thin lines of rainbow colors squirming through. All not unlike a psilocybin experience. I felt a hint of nausea but not too uncomfortable. It was gone in another 1/2 hour.
T+1 to 1:15: I am definitely peaking at this moment. I have the mushroom-drunk inebriation feeling, but not as confusing. Spiritually/emotionally I am pretty intact although I would compare the audio/visuals of this dose to about 35 grams of psilocybian mushrooms. I feel that I am capable of pushing myself in any direction for exploration but this time I choose not to. I get an overwhelming feeling of happiness at times, where I just want to laugh and feel like I have a perma-grin on my face. I also feel stimulated to the point where I have to get up and walk around. Time seems to be going slower--I feel like I have been tripping for 3 hours.
T+2: I have passed the peak and can definitely feel the decline at this time. Although I still have a good amount of audio/visual effects, I know that in another 1 to 1.5 hours the visuals will subside and go away completely. I notice that I can see sound and perhaps hear light--I enjoy this greatly. I watch my girlfriend speak and can see the words come out of her mouth and see her "energy," which is very amusing.
T+4: No more visuals, although I don't feel like I have just taken a drug with that much potency. I don't feel tired and exhausted like I might from 2-CT-7 or LSD, or even 5-MeO-DIPT. I still continue to have a vibrant conversation with my girlfriend for another 23 hours before I am completely baseline.
T+6: I don't feel exhausted, but just have the feeling that I want to sleep. And I sleep well.
I agree with Elfstone when he says that this substance is neutral in where it goes. It didn't seem to push me in any particular direction but I could also sense that if I choose to push my self, I would be easily transported. I know that if I had closed my eyes and focused I could easily be taken away to a beautiful mystical place. IMHO, this stuff is great--too good.
-- Bender420
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20 mg Orally 20 mg Pyrolyzed 22 mg Orally 25 mg Orally ~27 mg Orally | (I tried this level three times, with one 1820 mg dose eyeballed by comparison to a known amount; all other doses and consumption methods have only been tried once.) |
At around 20 mg this is a wondrous material. It shares much of the best of psilocybian mushrooms but in a friendly and pleasant package. In contrast to 'shrooms it produces a very steady state and user-friendly response rather than the wave-like and often unpredictable experience of 'shrooms. It strikes me as a truly empathogenic psychedelic. Although sometimes a little too much so. Some of the boundary-dissolving experiences have created surprising and unexpected juxtapositions of perception such as (with 27 mg) finding myself, a chest of drawers, and an unpotted Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus partially overlapping in a trans-spatial/-temporal melange. Within small, localized regions of overlap we seemingly co-existed as a fused chimera but existed separately outside of those areas. It was quite a bizarre sensation. I have no clue how the cactus got mixed in as I hadn't seen it except in my mind at that time.
Partially merging or overlapping with solid objects or other things around me has been fairly common for me at 25 mg or above. Most people would find 1822 mg enjoyable and useful. Many experienced people would appreciate 25 mg even more, despite the increase in boundary-dissolving experiences (lots of us like having our boundaries dissolved and aren't threatened by ego-loss). Above 25 mg: whether a person likes this or not appears to hinge around their level of experience and comfort with intense peak states and potential depersonalization. It appears to be an excellent solvent for removing boundaries and illusions. Preparedness may have a lot to do with this, as might mental state, but my level of experience with it is inadequate to know--yet.
At a dose of around 30 mg a friend experienced a complete ego-death rivaling anything he had experienced previously with high-dose LSD, and found himself obliterated in total fusion with the Universal Mind. He also perceived himself as partially merged with two or more malevolent entities, which he perceived as feeding off his mind and emotions while attempting to direct or influence his behavior. This was found intensely distressing and bothered him a great deal even after the fact. What I found fascinating is that this type of astral parasitism was in complete accord with what he believed as a part of his healing practices, yet it had never bothered him prior to experiencing it as real.
Of any new substance I've experienced in the last 20 years nothing has impressed me more than this one. I'd place it right up there with mescaline, 'shrooms, and DMT as one of my absolute favorite experiences and with no more potentially negative elements than any of those three. The euphoric elements are excellent. The clarity of mind, visual perception, and wonderfully-delicate colored imagery, are nothing short of remarkable.
The feeling of shared space and mind is great. I've left every trip feeling as if my connections between both friends and universe have been greatly enriched. In fact anyone I've tripped around while using this material feels like family to me now. At all but the highest level experienced so far there has been a calm sense of belonging wherever I was and a distinct feeling as if I was smiling inside. Even at the higher levels it has been incredible despite a touch of edginess in spots.
I'd recommend that people don't use over 25 mg unless they can deal with potential depersonalization and universal fusion accompanied by extremely altered body perception. If this is not a threat to people then higher levels might be found quite valuable to experience. I would suspect a truly transcendent experience might be possible.
It has also left me with a lot of residuals in thought, perception, and my phosphenes. I've liked feeling more connected with the world; keenly aware of both the needs and limitations of others and much more tolerant and less judgmental. My sense of empathy even for people I disagree with has persisted long after the drug has worn off. I'm not certain that portions of my mind weren't rewired in a very positive direction after only a few experiences with it. Certain aspects of the experience (at 2527 mg) have been perplexing and defy definition.
Smoking 20 mg proved overwhelming and distressing mentally and was very hard on my lungs (very much like DMT in the physical impact on my lungs). It caused a literal tsunami of images, sensations, thoughts and colors swirling through me. Something in-between 'shrooms and DMT but with a character all its own. I remember relatively little about the experience except being glad that it was over. I wish I'd read Tao Jones' account prior to smoking, so as not to have felt like I wasted some precious material without a productive result. In retrospect, I'd probably start out by smoking a relatively few mg and working my way up slowly. (I'd likely use the same low dose of 5 mg, with 25 mg bumps as needed, if insufflating it.)
I also noticed that when using 1822 mg, the experience lasted about 2 hours with a roughly 20 minute onset and a nice mild "glow" after the fact (used orally). When using 25 mg to ~27 mg (the most I've done so far in a handful of trials), the peak still ran around 2 hours but the experience was quite discernible at a diminished intensity for 34 more hours. A fascinating thing observed with friends and also noted by Leuner and Baer is that not simply the level of effects but also the duration can vary dramatically from one person to the next. For instance the first time I tried it was with 3 friends. One person was back in 90 minutes, 2 of us were back in around 2 hours whereas the 4th was going for almost an hour longer.
I suspect that for psycholytic therapy currently involving LSD or 'shrooms, this substance might prove a favorite among therapists. Verbal interaction is easy, duration is short, and effectiveness is excellent. Depersonalization seems to be controllable by regulating dosage, permitting a wide range of applications. For people seeking depersonalization and ego-death experiences, this material (at 30 mg or above) might prove a better choice than LSD due to its shorter duration and greater clarity of mind. My impression though--based on only a few experiences--is that applications of this substance should be restricted to normal or fairly normal people. I'd suggest that psychotics and overly sensitive or fearful/anxious people be strongly discouraged from its use, or else be accompanied by professionals who are both competent at dealing with potential crisis states and extremely experienced (specifically including the prior use of this material by themselves).
-- Justin Case
1830 mg Orally
I was excited to try this compound, as it was the first that I would actually get to try in a pure form so closely related to psilocybin. Granted I have had plenty of tryptamine experience, with some synthetic materials but most of natural origin. Psilocybe cubensis is native to my area so I have explored this mushroom in depth. The variability in the experience between strains and species of the natural mushrooms is obvious. My interest in trying synthetic psilocin or psilocybin is much more to confirm that the additional indoles baeocystine and norbaeocystine color the mushroom experience. So when the opportunity to try 4-acetoxy-DET arrived, I was delighted.
Wow! This stuff is one of the cleanest, least body-load tryptamine I've ever experienced. It has a duration that mimics psilocin, onset 1020 minutes, peak 23 hours, and an easy half hour glide down. I assayed it first at 18 mg and found it much to my liking. The color visuals induced by this oral dose were very prominent--beautiful and fast geometries. It had a bit of a psilocin nature, but not totally. It was nearly overwhelming, although I never lost sight of the place I was in. It was very beautiful. But visuals alone, as much as I love them, do not entirely define a good psychedelic for me. This substance kept my head clear, my thinking was absolutely impeccable, despite the sensory overload. This was a good overload, by the way. The bodily sensations were incredible. I can only describe them as wave after wave of full-body orgasms washing over me. Later investigations brought the dosages up to 30 mg with nothing but the positive effects increasing. There were more colorful visuals washing over me in orgasmic glory. Absolutely no nausea. Absolutely no dark corners. This is definitely one of my top tryptamines. I rank it right up there with DMT and psilocin. (Note that DPT did not agree with me at all, so it's not like I'm disposed to liking all tryptamines.)
-- August